From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Fri Jul 16, 1999  4:09 pm
Subject:  Re: Aol BB ??

In a message dated 7/16/99 2:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EastGSD@aol.com
writes:

<< There are people out there that
believe there is some CIA stuff going on here in Shiloh land. >>

Boy... guess I should have started from top down instead of bottom up this time ;-)

#1. First let us define "Shiloh land" To me it means MY BREEDING PROGRAM that was started in 1962 (when some of these "people" were still in diapers)! Kennel of Origin

Can we be a little FAIR here?? If yes, then try to understand that during all of those years (before AOL) I was selling dogs to "my" customers ......or selling puppies from my satellite kennels (C-O's) to my customers ..... so my concern had to be to my customers........ just hang in for a minute here OK?

Since I dealt with MY CUSTOMERS ****only**** for all of those years, I can assure you that out of the THOUSANDS of puppies I sold .........NONE..... of my "customers" asked me HOW OR WHY I did things .... not seriously anyway ...they may ask "how did you get them so big" and I would answer MIRACLE GROW PLANT FOOD!! They would laugh, and it was over. They UNDERSTOOD that I had developed a "formula" that WORKED, and all they really cared about was that their puppy would grow up to be HUGE ... WITH GREAT HIPS ... and a stable (highly intelligent) TEMPERAMENT! They did not care HOW he got that way, just that he WOULD be what I had said he would be.....PERIOD!

BTW would you ask your car dealer to explain EVERY detail on how the car was MADE, or would you just want info about that CAR? Same goes for an Air conditioner, TV, Microwave oven, etc... You want to know how the product WORKS, not every detail on how it was MADE......right?????

When someone would PUSH it .... "well. how did you really get him so big? Did you add ??? or did you??? RED FLAGS WENT OFF!! SPY!! SPY!! Warning...Warning!! WHY were they asking these questions?? THINK ABOUT IT!

That caused me to do some things to PROTECT my secrets, so they could not be copied! After all I could not copyright protect my "secrets" .....!! I certainly did not TELL these people anything!! Did you ever hear of ESPIONAGE?
Yet now the same **type** of "people" want all of these answers ....FOR WHAT??

My responsibility is to the ISSR breeders that want to produce the BEST dogs they possibly can .. I have NEVER refused to guide ANY of them ...WHEN THEY **ASK ** FOR ADVICE! Some thought they knew more then I did, so they made some dumb choices ....That is NOT my fault!! I recall one coming to me a few years ago VERY UPSET ..she said **YOU KNEW** this would happen .....why didn't you tell me? I looked at her and said for 2 reasons ...1. You didn't ask 2. If I had tried to "shove it down your throat" you would NOT have listened! Actually you would have accused me of trying to 'sabotage" your breeding program...... so I let you find out for yourself!

Any breeder that REALLY CARED about the welfare of this breed would have asked me! It is THAT simple!!! I am sick & tired of being blamed for others mistakes, and being accused of everything in the book ..... **AOL POLICY**
While still others are only asking questions for all the WRONG reasons ...
They don't want the TRUTH ....They just want something they can use to paint a bad picture of this breed at the very least, or "ammo" for a full blown war if at all possible.
And there are some that are just "nosey" like my children were, when the training center was being built. The contractors were here to do a JOB ......before the snow started to fly ..yet they had to deal with...Why are you digging a hole? That's my moms garden, she will get mad if you dig here! What? You want to cut down OUR tree?? Why are you putting fences in the slop? Well, then how are you going to get those fences out when
it gets hard? Are you going to hammer them loose? Why are you using such little sticks with those pink strings? Don't you KNOW that you can't tie these dogs out on those strings? Didn't my mom tell you that you can't tie out dogs? Those sticks are too small, why don't you get bigger ones? 
Should I go on??? Those guys would come to me & tell me they will QUIT if I didn't get those kids in the house, and KEEP them there!! Now I know how they felt!

Thanks for letting me blow some steam ..... but that is why I ignore ALL aol questions any more, they are the same thing over & over, and no matter how hard I tried to answer, they just come back with more slop! BUT I PROMISED  TO ANSWER ALL HONEST QUESTIONS HERE... so I will, since YOU are asking ;-)

<<<What caused "Artus" to be bred at such a young age? And why was
"Artus" chosen as the "new blood" rather than an adult dog?>>>>

1. Artus was not bred till he was a year old....... SAME AS ALL OTHER SHILOHS!
If you read the ISSR rules, males are x-rayed (prelim) at 1 yr. THEN they can be used! If you contact EVERY Shiloh owner for the past 4 decades and ask them the age of their dogs sire (when bred) you well be surprised at how many "yearlings" you will find on your list! It has ALWAYS been common practice here!! So why would I CHANGE my program for Artus? I could pull TCCP records on EVERY "STUD" male that belonged to a registered kennel, and then check how old EACH was at his first breeding .. Would that make them happy??
Better yet, why not call all of these breeders and ask THEM? If the dog was over 1 year of age, ask them if they HAD A FEMALE they could have bred him to ;-) some may have waited longer JUST for that reason!

2. I am not getting any younger .. therefore I don't plan on breeding him once a year, and have to wait 20 years to find out what he is producing! Can you picture anyone finding a cure for anything if the scientists could only try ONE experiment at a time, and only after all data was gathered on the first one!! LOL

******If "they" are worried about the quality he is producing, tell them NOT to buy any of his pups!! God knows the waiting list is so long now that even if I bred him to every bitch I could possibly find (compatible) I would still not have enough pups to go around! My next 2 Artus litters (for late fall) are already SOLD OUT & FULLY PREPAID!!! So tell them not to worry about what I do, or my customers, that is MY problem, not theirs!! ****** I breed because I want people to have an opportunity to own a magnificent dog ..... that is what I provide for them ... that is ALL that matters!

PART 2 ...... Because I could not purchase a fully grown adult with his qualities!! The ADS are bred by a SMALL group of people that LOVE their dogs ... If they had a grown dog that had PROBLEMS they might sell him, but NEVER their BEST!!! NEVER!! So I could settle for an older dog that they wanted to GET RID OF .. or carefully select EXACTLY the puppy I needed (and take a few risks, as well as deal with having to be patient till he matures) I chose this path because I had to have the VERY BEST POSSIBLE!! ****I WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN IN A N.Y. MINUTE!!!!***** I have NOT been disappointed
in any way! His hips came out as I had predicted, his size is even better then I expected, HIS TEMPERAMENT MAKES MY HEART SING, and .......HE IS PRODUCING ***BETTER*** THEN I COULD HAVE DREAMED FOR!!

So what's their beef??

And while I am at it, have I not answered those questions already? Did we not set up a web site JUST for him? Did I not take pictures & write reports on him REGULARLY as he was maturing? Did we not write WEEKLY reports on his first litter ... and more on his second, etc.?
Trillium Hill Kennel breeding Shiloh Shepherds with a splash of New Blood!
just follow ALL of his links!!!!! & his litters!

IS THERE ANY OTHER SHILOH BREEDING **EVER** DONE THAT HAS BEEN AS WELL
DOCUMENTED????

So what's their beef?

BTW ... I did that so NO-ONE could accuse me of "keeping secrets"! I was that confident that he would be what I expected (because I know how to select a dog ;-)
that I was willing to take a big risk .... What IF something had gone wrong?? Hmmm those people would be having the party of their lives!! Now they hate me with a passion, because I was RIGHT ........ as usual ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-O

FINALLY ..FOR THE RECORD..... Another one of the STUPID things I have heard
several times was ............Why didn't you get a PROVEN stud??
PROVEN FOR WHAT??? Proven that he can produce xyz when bred to an xyz bitch?
BIG DEAL!! Any Malamute will produce Malamutes when bred to a Malamute! So If there IS a problem, how can you be sure it was not created through the RC factor, or the bitch herself? If a 27" dog bred to a 24" bitch does not produce a 30" male, does that mean he can't do so when bred to a linebred 28" bitch that is LOADED with 30" ancestors?? PROVEN ... proves NOTHING ... unless PROVEN within the SHILOH bloodlines!!! So if a breeder gets a PROVEN Terv that has NEVER produced soft ears, and breeds it to a soft eared Shiloh line, what do you think they will get??? PROVEN..... give me a break!! I am
a LOT SMARTER then that! That's why the only thing a "proven" male can prove ..........is that I was RIGHT AGAIN! ROTFLMAO! (and I think I've earned that right ;-)

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sat Jul 17, 1999  9:55 pm
Subject:  Re: AOL POSTS

I have been hearing horror stories about their BB and several posts were forwarded to me, asking that I reply.
Upon reading the Patti post I was ROTFLMAO ...... their entire story is based (as usual on half truths & LIES!!

Regarding the ADS ..... please read <<<statements>>>> verses the TRUE FACTS!


<<<<<<The ISSR rules do allow breeding after a 12 month prelim, but this was allowed because of the LMX on the rest of the litter. Also these were Shilohs being bred to Shilohs with a long history of their bloodlines. Artus was a "new blood" line, thus I would think that not having data on littermates would call for more caution.>>>>

#1. There was more data on Artus's PARENTS littermates, then on most Shiloh's born in the last decade ....DUE TO POLITICS, "takeover's" and splits that caused people to either register their dogs with other groups, or not upgrade them, etc. Yet these dogs are still being bred! Wouldn't one with MORE detailed LMX be even better? hmmmmm
#2.... data on littermates? We received a 6 month report on the ENTIRE litter, published on the web site, with pictures of their meeting, and another one at 1 YEAR .. this included ALL of his littermates, not just "some" or a "few" ..... I would like to see how many Shiloh owners are willing to stand up and inform me that they have a PERFECT LMI on their dog!!! ***** Artus can stand up and say that!!!! ;-)


<<<<<Back when Tina was looking at the ADS we were still "friends" and she told me of older ADS available but they were too expensive.>>>>>

NOT! I may have joked something like ... sure if you had $250,000 you might be able to talk to them HA HA HA!! Expense is like Lisa's Grizz ... she is only asking 100 MILLION dollars for him! What would you sell YOUR dog for?? Dan .. what about Dylan ... got a price on that boy???

<<<<<It was my customer that brought the magazines here from Germany, the end of Sept, 1997. Tina was here to evaluate my litter and was so excited to see the ADS. She clearly told us that she had heard of them,>>>>>>>

#1. Toni brought those magazines because I HAD been talking about the ADS, and had been investigating several breeders (through my FAMILY in Germany!)

#2. Yes I was thrilled that they had so many pictures so that I could SHOW Patti what they looked like, many of the pics I had were of the Blacks (since that was my focus at the time, and here they came in ALL colors!

#3. If Wendy decides to admit the TRUTH ..or... maybe we can put her on a polygraph if not? Then she can tell everyone HOW MANY TIMES I had talked about the ADS, and for HOW LONG!!! Even when the "back issue" was going nuts, she had asked about finding something to outcross to ..in case this was a "genetic" problem .. and someone said Anatolian ..and I said NEVER .
****WHEN I DO GO OUT IT WILL BE TO AN ADS*** I am not "quite" ready yet, but we WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT **SOON** that meant by 97-98 we had best have one ready!! That is why I started my search in the SPRING OF 97 ...AND I HAVE THE LETTERS TO PROVE IT! Not to mention long distance phone bills!! Yes it was SLOW going, and I did check into a few LANGHAAR breeders (from those magazines) but ended up with my original choice ....who BTW was NOT **NEVER **NOT advertised in those magazines ;-)


I am really getting VERY sick of the Artus attacks ....... could some people really be THAT JEALOUS OF HIM???

The rest of this crap I did answer on the AOL BB!

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sat Jul 17, 1999  11:09 pm
Subject:  Re: AOL POSTS

In a message dated 7/17/99 10:51:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MaShiloh@aol.com writes:

<< The rest of this crap I did answer on the AOL BB! >>

OK for those of you that can't go to AOL to see those answers ;-) I am pasting my reply's here ... but I wish they showed up in color, the effect was awesome ;-)

Subject: Re: Artus??
Date: Sat, 17 July 1999 08:20 PM EDT
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:MaShiloh">MaShiloh</A>
Message-id: <19990717202016.17559.00001658@ng-bd1.aol.com>

>Artus was imported on 3/16/98- as a 3 month old- That would make birthdate
>12/97 (Article written by MaShiloh)
>


You may want to try counting again .... If he was born 12/16 then he would have JUST TURNED 3 months upon arrival ;-) If he was born 11/18 then he would STILL be only 3 months old until 3/18, when he would officially then turn 4 months .. so..... if you are not 4 months yet, I guess you are only 3 months ...correct??

>Artus/Beauty Litter born on 1/25/99( Taken from Shilohshepherds website...
>which means bred 2 months earlier- ~11/20/98 give or take a few days.. :)

Well maybe you should look above and try counting again ;-) ROTFLMAO


>So how come everyone says he was a yr. old at breeding? Isn't this against
>even the Shiloh Registry Rules?? How could dog have OFA Prelims and be over a
>yr of age at 11-98, when born 12-97??
>

WELL.........maybe he WAS born in NOVEMBER, and some people just don't know
how to count correctly, thereby creating FALSE illusions ;-) LOLOLOLOL

>Just Wondering.
>Amy

And I am still wondering when you plan on asking these questions on the one
list now that you have rejoined again ;-)

THE FOLLOWING WAS MY REPLY TO PATTI SCHAEFFER

Subject: Re: My Opinion
Date: Sat, 17 July 1999 08:36 PM EDT
From: <A HREF="aol://3548:MaShiloh">MaShiloh</A>
Message-id: <19990717203607.17559.00001664@ng-bd1.aol.com>

>Oh well, just my .02 :-)

#1. Your 2 cents worth is obviously full of errors, that I can EASILY prove!! And will be GLAD TO on the one list ... no need to waste my time here! BUT I would like to state that;

over the past few months I have been fully aware of the SPLIT IN THE ISSDC (your new club) due to the fact that several OFFICIALS from both sides have contacted me in hopes of a reconciliation between the ORIGINAL ... SSDCA and their particular "splinter" group.

FULL DETAILS HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED ON OUR ONE LIST ;-)

The SSDCA, Inc. Board of Directors has been working very hard, holding weekly meetings in preparation for future negotiations..... with the sincere desire for the future betterment of our breed.

OBVIOUSLY.... You're not in favor of this!


Tina M. Barber
Shiloh Shepherd
Breed Founder
IHS  What's in a Name

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sun Jul 18, 1999  5:34 pm
Subject:  Re: ISSR Rules?

In a message dated 7/18/99 5:12:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Heche3@aol.com
writes:

<< but if honest questions get such reactions maybe their is truth to some of these rumors. >>

If you have been reading this list for a few months, please show me ONE honest question that I answered in anger??

Or even one question?? I am just fed up with certain people and the GAMES they play....... If someone keeps telling people that you are XYZ .. does that make it so? Oh, I get it, if the LIE is repeated enough times, maybe it is the TRUTH?

Rumor; AN UNVERIFIED OR UNFOUNDED REPORT, STORY, ETC. CIRCULATING FROM PERSON TO PERSON
What does YOUR dictionary say?? Mine does not say anything about it becoming TRUTH if spread around well enough!! If I am wrong about this, then maybe I should start a good one .. rumor that is..

TINA WON THE LOTTO ......TINA WON THE LOTTO....... TINA WON THE LOTTO


Now I better start planning on how I will spend all of those millions ;-)

From:  AGinley@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sun Jul 18, 1999  12:37 pm
Subject:  ISSR Rules?

Question on the ISSR Rules-
<ISSR Does allow breeding after a 12 mo Prelims?>>>

The Beauty/Artus litter was born on 1/25/98, Since MaShiloh responded to the AOL BB with<< "IF Artus born on 11/18/97>>- that would make him 1 yr 2 days at time of the breeding, no way could 12 mo Prelims been back from OFA in 2 days. That would be the oldest case scenario, since he was imported as a 3 mo old according to the website, and would have been 4 mo old... 2 days later if born 11/18.

And that is with the question, since "IF" was presented as the age, not the true age,,

According to the <<"IF born on 11/18- by MaShiloh>>

1. Then the earliest litter born would have to be after 12mo Prelims are done and back. No way could this be 1/25- based on the gestation period of avg. 63 days,, Even best case scenario gives the dog only a few days past birthday. OFA doesn't move that fast,,unless ISSR is going back again to breeders evaluating hips, not by Unbiased, qualified veterinarians?

How could he follow the ISSR Rules ?

BTW- Anyone know what Artus birthdate is??

Anyone know the answers?


AGinley@aol.com

PS- Am Paraphrasing the "IF" from Mashilohs AOL response , just like MaShiloh
Paraphrased the AOL BB from Patti.

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sun Jul 18, 1999  4:08 pm
Subject:  Re: ISSR Rules?

In a message dated 7/18/99 3:48:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AGinley@aol.com
writes:

<< The Beauty/Artus litter was born on 1/25/98, Since MaShiloh responded to the AOL BB with<< "IF Artus born on 11/18/97>>- that would make him 1 yr 2 days at time of the breeding, no way could 12 mo Prelims been back from OFA in 2 days. >>


CORRECT! So that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee!! What does this have to do with the puppies??

BEFORE you go off on some other silly bunny trail please read this!

<<<<<<<The Litter Application for puppy registration MUST be filled out completely and submitted to the ISSR, Inc. along with a detailed (TCCP) four generation pedigree of both the SIRE and Dam, listing COMPLETED LMX Data as well as, the Breed Warden's "Approval" form, if needed, when puppies are between 40-70 days of age. This application must list the EXACT number of puppies in the litter along with specific details regarding sex, color, coat, and any unusual markings and 1 picture of each individual puppy plus 2 pictures of the entire litter with the DAM (taken within 10 days of birth), as well as at least 2 pictures of the entire litter taken between the 40- 70 day age limit. >>>>>>
 

JUST IN CASE YOU HAVE TROUBLE READING ..PLEASE NOTE;

***********when puppies are between 40-70 days of age. *************

That means that the parents BETTER have their PERMANENT ADULT REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES BY THE TIME THE PUPS ARE NO OLDER THEN 70 DAYS.........That is when all of the paperwork must be submitted..... get it?
If Artus was x-rayed at one year (12 months) AS PER ISSR RULES..... and it takes 4 weeks for OFA to send documentation........and Then he still has to go through the rest of the upgrade procedure ... that can take as long as 30 days before his ADULT CERTIFICATE is in his owners hands ............ gee, that adds up to 58 days ......and if he was bred a FEW days AFTER he turned One year.......... that means that beauty was only 50-55 days PREGNANT!!! Pups not even BORN YET!!!
 
And you can NOT apply for registration papers (this is not AKC) until the pups are ??? how old was that???? DUH!

So what is your problem anyway??? Why don't you read the REST of the rules before you continue to bother the nice people on this list with such silly questions!!!!
ISSR Rules and Regulations
 

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sun Jul 18, 1999  4:25 pm
Subject:  Re: ISSR Rules?

In a message dated 7/18/99 3:48:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AGinley@aol.com
writes:

<< OFA doesn't move that fast,,unless ISSR is going back again to breeders evaluating hips, not by Unbiased, qualified veterinarians?

How could he follow the ISSR Rules ? >>

#1. ISSR never had "breeders" evaluating hips! I did most of the evaluations WITH 2-3 vets during a "hip conference" that they charged me $40 for even if it was 10 minutes long! I did this for several reasons, we will not go into this now! Due to politics the rules WERE AMENDED TO OFA ONLY ...... BTW that was an option any one could have chosen at any time....... I was ONLY one of the options, since Pet x-rays went for LMX records anyway!!
BREEDERS could have chosen to send their reports to OFA ....... or they could have chosen to have me read them instead..... that is water under the dam & a closed subject for now!

#2. Any dog can be bred PRIOR to even having his hips done, if that is what the breeder chooses to do!! There is NO rule otherwise! The rules CLEARLY STATE that the stud MUST have ADULT REGISTRATION PAPERS or the ****PUPPIES**** will not be registered!

In other words.... If Artus's hips FAILED to pass OFA, he could not get "Breeding" papers, therefor he could NOT sire a litter of pups & get them registered, therefore the beauty litter would have to be given away as pets, & he would have been neutered!!

This is NOT something a breeder (especially a new one) would EVER want to see on their record! If we had ANY DOUBT that he might not pass OFA, he would NOT have been bred!! PERIOD!!!!
When his hips were done ... the same (as in olden days) vets & myself  evaluated his hips (and due to the fact of who he was, etc. we set up some "side-bets" on what the OFA rating would be) 2 said Excellent ............ 1 said Good .....and I said "I am 100% positive
we will get at the least a FAIR, but I personally think they should rate him as GOOD ..... (I had never heard of a dog his age getting excellent on a prelim)
THE OFA REPORT CAME IN GOOD ......LONG TIME BEFORE THE PUPS WERE BORN
...........
Why are you having a problem with this? You don't even have one of his pups ..... for that matter, you don't even have a Shiloh of any kind, do you???

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sun Jul 18, 1999  11:07 pm
Subject:  Re: AOL POSTS

In a message dated 7/18/99 7:26:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dwalker@astro.uchicago.edu writes:

<< Tina first mentioned the ADS outcross she was looking for to me in the spring or summer of 97, as she was hoping that Dylan would have good size and she could breed
Dylan with a black Artus daughter to try and pull giant blacks out of both of them. Because Dylan is out of Smoke'n Black Bear of Zion, he has recessive for black, and this
pairing would be likely to throw a lot of big black puppies. >>


Dan, thanks for pointing that out ..... it just proves ANOTHER point, that I do my "planning" WAY in advance ;-) Just because I may not tell everyone what I am "planning" on for the next 5-10 years, doesn't mean that I have not been preparing ;-)

From:  MaShiloh@aol.com
Date:  Mon Jul 19, 1999  2:02 am
Subject:  Re: Artus Breedings

In a message dated 7/17/99 12:53:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Grizz4wd@aol.com writes:

<< Ma,
What do you look for to find a compatible bitch for Artus? Was wondering what kind of qualities you find work well together with his. >>

AT THIS POINT .... I may go to the left or the right with time ...but at THIS TIME
I want to breed him to bitches that;

1.....are MAW if at all possible ........ no bitches inbred on small GSD dogs.
2.....I want super movement ..... He is great ... but I have seen Shiloh's with an even better FLYING trot .... This I never want to loose ..

LET ME CLARIFY .. there are PLENTY of "Shiloh's" that do not have good movement at all, and certainly NOT a FLYING TROT!

BUT .... I will breed him to faulty bitches too, just to improve the quality of the next generation!! Since I will be there to select the pups that ARE suitable for the next step, from those that are not.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that they are "bad" ..... just that they did not get all the qualities I was looking for ....needed .......in order to breed UP

Gee... I must be getting paranoid after the "war' so I am trying to be CAREFUL that I present my point clearly enough, so that "certain" people can't possibly misquote me ..... sorry

Continued....

Artus WILL improve;

HEAD SIZE ......... FRONT SHOULDER ANGULATION .......AND BALANCE for those of you that just hate those "slab sided" dogs ;-)

BTW .... He also has full dentition ..... one of the Shiloh "secrets" (MISSING TEETH)

MOST OF ALL ... HE WILL IMPROVE ON OUR TEMPERAMENTS ADDING "confidence" to
the "spooky" ones! He will stabilize those that are just a bit "overly cautious" and he will add some REAL SHEPHERD *****ATTITUDE****** to the rest!

If you don't know what I mean ... it's that ability to "think and then ACT in an intelligent manner .... needed for guiding eyes dogs, etc. Many of our dogs have no trouble with the THINK .. but too many don't have the CONFIDENCE to ACT ... or worst yet, they OVER react to situations that should be handled in a calmer, more thoughtful manner
oops..... are they genetically taking after me? ;(

This added CONFIDENCE will greatly benefit the majority of our breed .... But most of all he will add HYBRID VIGOR!! Cleaning up the OVER-POLUTION created by over-inbreeding! ( I think we have those articles in our learning center)

He will also TIGHTEN UP our hips ..... and we do need that NOW, especially after I heard some horror stories the other night of litters that are 'crashing" from too much inbreeding ;( Our hips were MUCH better only a few years ago ;(

The only thing he will NOT add is size ......... BUT from what I am seeing ...... his pups will still be a LOT bigger then many of the litters produced last year! I have 2 (2 yr old) bitches in my kennel that I showed HC members last year .. so far the Artus (female) pups from his first litter (6 months old) are AS BIG as those girls! I am fully confident that he can produce 30" males with the RIGHT .....MAW... females ;-)
But I am still not willing to guarantee that in writing ...... not **YET**anyway ;-)

I will fully refuse to allow him to be bred to small bitches that do not have SIZE in their LMX data! After all .... The Shiloh has always been advertised as a dog with SUPER SIZE ...SOUND HIPS ..... STABLE TEMPERAMENTS ... he is here to fix the last 2 parts, and we have enough Size left so that we don't have to loose that!
History of the Shiloh Shepherd

From:  trillhill@xxx.xxx
Date:  Mon Jul 19, 1999  6:57 am
Subject:  Artus and Beauty

Hi Amy,

In response to your question, Artus turned one year old before he bred Beauty. He also had had his hip x-rays done before she was bred as well. Answer your question? Probably not to your satisfaction, but it is the truth.

You may be unhappy with the tone of the responses that you have received but many of us have dealt with you on AOL for several years.

As you can see we have put through your posts, so I think we've proved our point, that we aren't censoring posts.

Karen Ursel

Proudly owned by:

Artus
NS bCh Ursel's Black Beauty of Zion, CGC
bCh Ptd. Shenandoah's Coco-Bear of Zion
Trillium's Cinnamon Brandy of Zion
Valiant Glory of Trillium Hill

From:  AGinley@xxx.xxx
Date:  Mon Jul 19, 1999  1:03 pm
Subject:  Hmm... Shilohs should be Spin Shepherds.. :)

Sensei,
Yea, I know what MAW is,, but that depends on the Story.. Have Seen Posted as Malamute, American Shepherd, White Shepherd.. Posted as Malamute, American Show GSD, White Shepherd. Seen Posted as Malamute, Alsation, White Shepherd. Posted as Malamute, American GSD, Wolf.. Then latest is that MAW is a secret kept by MaShiloh, so who knows?

I do think it is probably the Malamute, American GSD, and White GSD..

Guess just asking about Artus since dates don't add up. Gees, have asked repeatedly for Artus Birthdate,, from Karen and Ma.. must be a big secret.

I believe all this Vague responses, and People attacking posters leads to a persons creditability. Sorry, but all I can base a person on is their straightforwardness, and
openess to tell the truth.

Look at the Ignore posts now.... :) Guess it is too close to home.

What has everyone got to hide?? Anyone else afraid to tell their dogs birthdate, pedigree if asked???

If you see enough smoke, then fire must be pretty big. Glad that a few people have emailed me with disgust at how people have just avoided a question and got nasty.. LOL..Keep Spinning Stories,, soon you make get one that makes sense...

Golly, just follow the breeder/founder.. LOL..

SAME BREED, Different Ancestors... Ma's Replie to Colleen about ARTUS..

You GUYS are following the wrong person,, THEY ARE IN GERMANY WITH THE ADS...
IF that is same breed as Shiloh...;)

Good Luck
Amy

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Tue Jul 20, 1999  6:47 pm
Subject:  Re: A calm post about Artus

In a message dated 7/19/99 6:44:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Northdog42@aol.com writes:

<< This is a nice clear recommendation about Artus. What I like about Sumo is that I can see him thinking, and I know how smart he is, but it's true...he lacks confidence and over reacts. Less so than in the past, since I've tried to socialize him as much as possible.

I'm starting to see Shilohs as a "work in progress." I met Artus last summer, and I found him to be a handsome dog. I'd like to hear more about him and how the choice was made to make him a Shiloh. >>


To understand this better, let's go to the beginning OK
1. I bred GSD's since 1962
Kennel of Origin
2. During the years I was focusing on some particular characteristics (see LMX)
3. After many experiments, I finally had my 4 foundation lines Origins (see chapter 4)
4. When I went "rare breed" with my lines I formed the ISSR .....and the "stud books" were opened to SPECIFIC dogs that met CERTAIN requirements (this will all be republished soon) They are available in our old booklets
4. Even dogs that did not meet the SIZE minimum could enter as Shiloh's as long as they qualified in the TEMPERAMENT & LMX department ;-) (Since the MAW line would still pump up the size) but they would only get ORA papers. 
5. Most GSD's (even very big, nice ones with OFA hips did not make it, because they did not meet the LMX requirements!! THAT WAS A MUST!!
6. Artus would have qualified for ORA papers in 1990 !! As per the original rules. The stud books were closed in 1992, and ONLY those puppies born from the founding stock could be registered.
7. I wanted to re-open the books in 97, but due to "politics" was advised against it, thereby we added the RED "new blood" category instead!
8. If you look at the dogs pictured in the contest, I highly doubt if you can tell the "real" Shiloh's from the ADS ........that is WHY he IS a Shiloh!
Just like the AKC GSD's became "Shiloh's (if they met the requirements) so the ADS can become Shiloh's if THEY meet the requirements.

Can an Anatolian Shepherd become a Shiloh? NO! They are a separate breed ...but even though an AMERICAN WHITE SHEPHERD is now a "separate" breed from the GSD, with the proper documentation (and if they met the ISSR requirements) YES one of them COULD become a Shiloh ....... they all came from the SAME BREED ..........and since they are only a 'variety" of that breed, they could qualify!

From:  AGinley@xxx.xxx
Date:  Tue Jul 20, 1999  9:59 am
Subject:  Artus Birthdate

Thank You to TinaP of Lakeway for giving me Artus Birthdate of 11/21/97 from an old show premium list..

So Glad that someone can speak the truth,,

Everyone with a mind, do some Math,, Artus turned a yr on 11/21/98,, Litter Born 1/25/98.. Hmmm 65 days later,,,, so his first litter if born prior to 65 days.. which over 90% of the pups are.. he would be under a yr. at time of breeding.. Ooops..;)

Guess the ISSR Rules arent too strict, Poor Artus would have been OFA Xrayed on Sat 11/25 then bred to Beauty same day , and then all prayed she went late. and from last breeding.

Thought ISSR was a Registry to be admired.. But heck, just bend the rules, just cause it says Prelims.. Doesnt mean they have to be mailed, evaluated, etc.. Just get an Xray and thats all, Kinda like " I will OFA" Sometime.

Wonder what is next?? I am thinking about Prelims,, so that should be ok??

Gees, the SV is more strict, so are most Responsible Breeders of any breed.

Amy
PS- Thank You TinaP for sending me that info, Wonder why so many folks get
upset about a question,, thought this was an information list.

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Mon Aug 2, 1999  10:48 pm
Subject:  Re: ISSR Rules for Artus' puppies

In a message dated 7/20/99 8:25:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jmcandrew@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< I am now confused about the ISSR rules regarding Artus' puppies. We are hoping to get a show-quality puppy and have been informed that we will get Red/White papers at the time we get her. The question is, can her papers be up-graded when it comes time to get her permanent registration papers at 1 year or so? From what I understood (and it may be totally wrong), Artus couldn't be up-graded to orange or gold but can his offspring be up-graded? >>

1. Your puppy will have NB1 (Red/White) papers if she is show quality, or B/W if not!

2. No you cannot upgrade to Orange or Gold, but why would you want to? The ONLY difference between those colors and the others is $$$$$money$$$$$$ YOU GET TO PAY A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE ;-)
Is the quality better in Gold papered dogs? NOT USUALLY!! Actually, the ONLY difference is that the BREEDER says that this puppy will COST more! Breed Specific
FAQs Maybe this link will help ;-)

3. YES, you can upgrade your dog ..... IF she is GREAT ..... to the TOP ****BEST***** category possible ;-) PLATINUM!! This is not one you PAY for, but one you must earn!! It PROVES you have a GREAT dog ;-)

<<<<<<<2.) GOLD/ORANGE/RED dogs that meet the following requirements can be upgraded to the Prestigious Platinum category by submitting a copy of the  following:

I.S.S.R Championship Certificate (no other Championship will be recognized) OFA Certificate with a GOOD or EXCELLENT RATING ONLY. (no fair ratings will be excepted)
Valid proof from the TCCP that said dog/bitch has attained the minimum of 1,000 R.O.M. points.
Upon submitting the above-required data, along with the appropriate $25.00 fee, the said Dog/Bitch will receive a PLATINUM colored Certificate. The certificate will show the full name and original registration number and classification, PREFIXED with the "PLT" code. Furthermore, said Dog/Bitch will be listed on the "Preferred Quality" list.
>>>>>>>>>

I tried to cut & paste, you may want to go there to see ALL the rules yourself ;-)
ISSR Rules and Regulations</A>

In conclusion .... "Gold" papers have been issued to so many inferior dogs (because the breeders wanted MORE money) that it makes me sick! It PROVES nothing! Only that the breeder SAID it was "gold" quality! The dog could be loaded with genetic problems, have soft ears, a hook tail, etc. etc. ... as long as he meets the hip size & temp requirements, the ISSR must issue the color papers the breeder requested! With the Platinum category, the dog HAS to earn it, but it PROVES that you have a great dog, for those people that
want to have the BEST ;-)

BTW, you get "yellow" pup papers first, then the Red/White .. and then the Platinum if she earns it. Artus COULD have qualified, but was removed from the show circuits due to the (yes, real) threats that were placed against him/his owner! Now aren't some people (politics) SICK? Nevertheless ... watch this boy meet all of the other requirements ....QUICKLY ;-)

From:  MaShiloh@aol.com
Date:  Thu Aug 5, 1999  11:11 pm
Subject:  Re: Inbreeding

In a message dated 8/5/99 10:26:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Licobec@aol.com
writes:

<< Tina, how many years ago did you realize that the Shiloh Shepherd was becoming too inbred? And, if you did know about it for some time, why all the sudden panic? It seems if it was apparent, then you should have been condemning breedings and breeders years ago and if necessary, refusing to register certain litters, you do run the registry. And, if you did know about it for some time, shouldn't you have gotten an outcross sooner to
solve the inbreeding program? >>

#1. If you study the pedigrees, or read the last post "ARTUS", you may note that I HAVE been outcrossing on a regular basis! The entire program was designed to go in 3-4, then out ..... then back in, then out, etc.

#2. When the group (now know as Kings) panicked 3 yrs ago, I said that we still had about 2 years left .. but I would be looking for one soon! Which I did do!!

#3. Due to the "back issue" and other political bull, it took me a year longer then I had planned .. Therefore we got VERY close to the edge this time! The outcross should have been ready by the end of 97!! ......therefore more caution had to be placed on breeding that COULD, or could not be done in 98!

#4. ISSR breeders were careful about what they were breeding, most asked for my approval, some chose to take some (informed) risks.

#5. When I "tightened" up the ISSR rules, panic ensued, and the "other club" started working toward starting "their own" registry. Unfortunately, that registry did not have the background knowledge regarding this breed, nor anyone guiding their program, other then other "new" breeders!

#6. Please feel free to read about INBREEDING, from many sources, they will all tell you that it is a great tool, when used PROPERLY!!  breeder  just a quickie ;-)
Significant Genetic Relationships article by Dr. John B. Armstrong, Ph.D. this may help?
The Canine Diversity ProjectI am sure this will answer many questions for you!! <A
Another Breeding Tool this is about our dogs, a must read after the others ;-)
ISSR Rules and Regulations maybe now you will understand why we have some of those
rules?
Inbreeding articles Nov98  maybe this will help too? would you like more? I will
be happy to load you right up ;-)

YOUR TURN

Why did I open the door to the Red/White category in 97? Does that not prove that I have been talking about an outcross for several years? Did you talk to all of the people that I warned about what could happen if the WRONG breeding were done? Or maybe they just DID NOT BELIEVE ME?? Could it be that some did not want to sell their pups for less money, so therefore rejected the outcross idea? Did any of them have any experience with CONTINUED intense inbreeding for 5-6- or more generations? How could I stop them from doing as they pleased, if they left the "control" registry? Do any of them know where they are going, or what to expect when they get there?
What is their LONG TERM plan? What happens to all of the misfit "Shiloh's" that could be born? Will their breeders be around in 10 years? How about 5 years? 3 maybe? Have you looked at the VIB list published in 95? How many of those "breeders" are still around? Where did the rest go? Why? Because I am too bossy? They started their own breeds/registries/whatever? Is this dedication to the breed? What have they done FOR the future welfare of this breed?

Have you ever heard of the SV? What are the differences between the SV and the AKC?? We do have an SV recognized representative club in America. <A
HREF="http://realgsd.net/RealGSD/SV/sv.htm">SV single breed registry for German Shepherds, Real GSD-SV</A> How many GSD dogs are registered with them? What % would you estimate? Isn't the GSD a GERMAN Shepherd? Should it not then be guided by the rules of it's founders? How many in the US today could pass those requirements? 50%? 10%? Why not? <A
HREF="http://www.germanshepherddog.com/registry.htm">USA Breed Registry
Program</A> maybe you should check this out, and ask them how many dogs truly qualify to be called German Shepherds ...... Is that what you would like to see happen to the Shiloh too? All kinds of varieties all over the place? All called by the same name .. yet with not much in common! If you think the type is not set now .. give it a few more years of misshaped breeding .. there will be no need to set type..... they will end up as
pathetic genetic monstrosities by then anyway!

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Fri Aug 6, 1999  11:39 am
Subject:  Re: ARTUS

In a message dated 8/5/99 11:09:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Northdog42@aol.com writes:

<< Well, if the Artus puppies are superior dogs, I don't really care what the semantics are. >>


Thank you very much!!

What I cannot understand is the fact that so many people keep saying how GREAT this breed is/was for the past 3 decades ...... when I was in FULL control, when nobody 'questioned" my program ..... but NOW all of a sudden, people have sprung up from "nowhere" that know more then I do, and question my judgments ....... hmmm that is very weird!

Personally I feel that if people don't like what I am doing with my breed, they should just find another one, or start their own! Why try to change something that has taken me a lifetime to develop ... and will take another lifetime to stabilize?

From:  packman007@xxxx.xxx
Date:  Sat Aug 7, 1999  12:13 am
Subject:  Re: ADS/Shiloh

<<<<<<<<<<My question has never been answered in regards to how many generations
back do you need to go til common ancestory, and how many foundation dogs?>>>>>>>

Hi Amy
Not to sound uninterested, but the info is available on pedigrees & such. Researching such things that are not my dogs lines are very boring as it is to the average person. It seems you enjoy figures & percents & facts & it might be good for you to do the research & count the generations.......it would be the same process that any one of us would have to do......& frankly, I don't give two hoots about the research & the internet stuff. Sorry!
But I'd be interested for you to share it when you come up with it


<<<<<<<<<Actually if you say that common ancestors makes the same breed, then the
Newfie and Lab are the same breed, since the English Lab was the ancestor to the Newfie.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Amy

The paper is part of it. That is the "map" that those who need to see this kind of info can follow. It's the history book so to speak. But the look & the outcome are also an important part. If your lab indeed had the same line as my Shiloh & they looked just alike, then I guess you might have a point but even if your lab was in the whelping box of my Shiloh, it would surely not make it much farther than my "pet'" papers & would never have a chance at being used in the future of the breeding. There is a lot to our standard & our regulations for registering every individual dog. Even if it is, lets just say, a Laz brother (since most have heard that name). If it doesn't meet all the standard requirements for
the look, the temperment, the size, etc. It still won't make it! There is a type that has
been formed. Does your lab fit it? Does it meet all the requirements? and does it have all the DNA & blood lines to prove it? Great! Welcome aboard, but it will be one ugly lab.....and probably a great looking Shiloh!

Not sure what your point was.......are you still trying after all these posts to say an ADS isn't a Shiloh? Does it really matter that much in the grand scheme of things? It will save our breed of Shilohs.........that is what the true Shiloh lover is concerned about. So it is or it isn't. You say it isn't. (there is only one dog in question here, is that right ?) Is there any point to keep continuing this discussion when there doesn't seem to be an answer for you?

No, Artus is not Laz & Laz is not Artus. But all their puppies will have something in common & because of all the fuss, Artus is not being shown. So is there anything more to really discuss?

All dogs probably come from the same 2 dogs in Eden just like we all come from
the same 2 humans that were there (if you believe in creation as opposed to evolution.......cuz that would be a different beginning). We are all different colors, sizes, shapes, countries, etc. But we are all humans.........

So we are not getting anywhere here. Artus was accepted into our breeding program. He is not going away. He is lovely & has some lovely pups. There are many other lines that have lovely pups. There are some very exhausted breeders here that are trying to be helpful & answer all these questions.......but we aren't getting anywhere . (and I refuse to count generations!)

So lets all go take another fun little "How do people perceive you" test, take a long hot bath, walk the dogs or something that won't get everyone going in circles again.
Chary

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sat Aug 7, 1999  9:47 pm
Subject:  Re: Outcross

In a message dated 08/06/1999 2:52:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, deev@wdiv.com
writes:

<< Ok, with all this talk of inbreeding and outcrossing, I had to ask this one. Tina - Will the Shiloh stud book have to stay open forever? Every so many generations/years will there be another outcross? Or can the stud book be closed after Artus?
Dee >>


Good question Dee ;-) BTW I DO like good honest questions ;-) So if any of you feel like you need to ask me, please do ...... I just get annoyed at the nonproductive .....foolish repeat ATTACKS!!

Dee, a lot depends on how things continue to progress. "Developing" a breed is like building a house, even with the best "blue prints" things need to be changed along the way, adjustments have to be made etc. That is why I added the R/W category. This leaves one door open, if needed.

In my 4 decades of breeding (and as you know, for 2 of those decades I really went all out with over 100 dogs in kennel, etc.) I have learned a LOT, but there is still much left to be learned. My mentors had their ideas, but their breeding programs (although spanning many more decades) were not as intense, so they may have missed some turns along the way.

During a conversation I had with a lady that is interested in learning more about all this, I came up with an analogy, that some may understand, others not.

Think back 200 years, America has just been founded. A few pioneers traveled alone from Boston to California, others wanted to try too ..... but there were so many risks along the way, deserts, mountains, Indian attacks, wild animals they had never even heard of before, etc..etc..

One person made the trip back & forth 30 times, now others wanted to go too, so a covered wagon party was formed ...... will the trip be exactly the same? Could dangers come up that were not expected? Could an act of nature cause havoc? YES .. There are uncertainties ....but..... there are also things that will be familiar, things that have already been overcome, detours that have been discovered previously, dangerous places that can be avoided ........

I feel like that pioneer, I have learned a LOT, but I don't know everything! All I can do is to use my reserves of experience to do the best I can, and lead those that trust my judgments. If the group works together, the trip will take less time, and be a lot safer ... if not? ......well......

The thing that I had not counted on was the "people" obstacles. Those that have already burned some bridges that were desperately needed to get this breed to the point where I was taking it. That means that the entire process will have to slow down. My plan called for 3 "Type" outcrosses to be brought in, then weeded through the lines to strengthen hybrid vigor, this would have taken us easily for another 12-20 years. The results attained from this program would have determined if we were OK, or if anything else had to be done in order to maintain the Shiloh as it should be.

At this point, it will take longer to reach those goals, so my best guess is that we will not be ready to close the stud books for another 25-30 years ;(

Once the foundation is broad enough, more concentration has to be AGAIN placed on Type ..... these past 3 years we have lost a lot of ground that had been covered in the early 90's ..... so we have to redo those stages again.

The one thing I can assure you of is simply that THIS BREED WILL GO ON! The vision I started with back in the 60's is still burning! I may not be here to fully finish the job, but I know that good people will be ready by then to carry on my work, and in many ways this early "opposition" has been nothing less then the refiners fire ;-)
Even though many have fallen by the way side, there is a handful of TRULY dedicated people that have come forth shinning, (and I feel very blessed) because of them....... I know that this breed will endure ;-)

From:  Trillhill@xxx.xxx
Date:  Sat Aug 7, 1999  11:36 pm
Subject:  Re: Outcross

In a message dated 08/07/1999 11:20:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Northdog42@aol.com writes:

> This has probably been answered, but I'm losing track here.
>
> Will Artus puppies be "official" Shilohs, with Shiloh papers, etc.?
> Are there restrictions of any sort?
>

Hi Claudia,

Breeding quality Artus puppies have RED/White papers. The only restriction on them is that they must have the Breed Warden's approval before they are bred. (As a breeder, that is something I would want to have before breeding anyway.)

For more information, please read the ISSR Rules and Regulations but here are some of the pertinent sections:

Section II
D)RED/WHITE Certificates of Registration will be issued ONLY to "New Blood" (Altdeutsche) Schaferhund and/or Dogs approved by the Breed Warden.

The first generation will be listed as NB1, and all progeny must be evaluated by the Breed Warden prior to receiving NB2 status.

Only the best specimens will be selected (the remaining progeny will carry BLACK/WHITE (non-breeding) papers. The progeny from this specially selected elite group will then be eligible for NB3 status.

The NB3 group when bred to "GOLD" dogs can then be approved for * "ORA"* papered progeny.

Article 3
Section 3: Restrictions on Showing Dogs/Bitches

All breeding quality dogs, that have not been neutered, spayed, or altered in any other way may compete for Championship Titles as follows:

1) ONLY I.S.S.R., Inc. registered PIN/RED/ORA/GOL dogs can be shown.

2) Win Sheets will be accepted from all AKC fun matches, specialty shows, and approved rare breed show organizations that have a signed contract on file with the ISSR agreeing NOT to attempt to register "Shiloh Shepherd Litters."

Glad to hear that Sumo is doing so much better and I'm looking forward to
seeing you at Homecoming!

Karen, Artus and one of his progeny, Val

From:  MaShiloh@xxx.xxx
Date:  Mon Aug 9, 1999  9:21 am
Subject:  Re: Re: Shiloh Shepherds.. 325

In a message dated 08/09/1999 6:17:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
GeminiSS@aol.com writes:

<< First of all you don't know if they are planning to use an ADS which would mean as much change as you are doing right now. >>

Dotty,

I don't want to get into this on the onelist, but let me ASSURE you that I know the ADS people, and if they (your club) COULD get one it certainly would not be anything worth breeding! At this time that small group in Germany is pretty disgusted with all Shiloh people!! Our engagement has been canceled! 
They were extremely offended at the way their BEST REPRESENTATIVE "Artus" was treated here!! With your group spreading all kinds of lies, and contacting the show organizations trying to BAN HIM from being shown, etc. ....... I don't care what people "think" this entire thing was to open doors of communication between two countries for the BETTERMENT OF OUR DOGS .... Although a few members of your club chose to make it PERSONAL! Afraid that he might beat one of "their dogs" (THAT I BRED TO BEGIN WITH!) they chose to "get rid of him" ...... and you think that "HIS PEOPLE" will allow your group to get an ADS? ROTFLMAO

Don't believe the lies you hear ... remember I am German, and have lots of relatives & friends there! If you have been offered an ADS then it MOST CERTAINLY was a nice big JOKE!!

From:  CORFIL@xxx.xxx
Date:  Mon Aug 9, 1999  8:08 pm
Subject:  Artus & Confusion - My Take

Hi All,

In the middle of July, around the 19th, I think, MaShiloh answered a question about what her plans were for breeding Artus. Gave out a lot of good info - maybe it is worth reposting?

Why was Artus chosen... think that was answered also - temperament, confidence etc...How was he chosen - its in the posts & on the web pages.

What Mashiloh has done, is doing & will do in the future - she explains, she gives references - the links that are dropped provide a world of information - really ought to try them.

A few people have told me not to believe everything I hear or read on web pages or that someone has written...

Let me explain what first drew me here - yes, it was an interest in Shilohs, been thinking about them for longer then I knew this list was here, the time just wasn't right for me to pursue it. Now that that time is getting closer, I started to pay more attention. Specifically what attracted me to this list & MaShiloh & others was "gut" instinct. I read the AOL BB before I ever came here. Can be a scary place that BB...but I have learned through my life experiences that the folks most attacked are the folks who are doing
something. Why attack someone who has nothing to offer. The attackers offer a lot of criticisms, but very few alternatives. lt all sounded familiar to what I had seen my "wise old man" go through. He was atacked because he had an idea, a program that was unique at the time to the CIty of Buffalo. He was questioned by those closest to him & harassed by outsiders doubting his intergrity, sincerity. All he wanted to do was make this little corner of the world a better place. So the "stuff" that is going on here "sounds"
familiar to me.

For those of you who have the evidence of MaShiloh's life's work by your side, I am jealous. You can see exactly what it is that all her hard work has produced. Eventually I will be able to join you.

In the meantime, there is another side of me that needs some answers to questions that I can't even express. The "knowing" part. Something has to "click" inside of me to really grasp something. The links that MaShiloh drops show me that her decisions, reasons for doing things are supported by the web sites that she links to. The similarities between what is on the original shiloh shepherd web site - about registries & inbreeding &
outcrossing & genetics are all supported by the web sites written, developed  and maintained by other folks. MaShiloh is saying the same things about the Shilohs that these other web pages, books, articles are saying. From my perspective - they can't all be wrong, there's just too much out there.

Do other folks have other plans, I'm sure they do, I just don't know what they are or where they are going or how they arrived at their decisions.

I may not get any sleep at all at Homecoming because I only have two days to cram in all I want to see and ask. Wish it started tomorrow.

Corinne

From:  Lynn Casto <klcasto@xxxxx.xxxx
Date:  Mon Aug 9, 1999  8:46 pm
Subject:  Re: Re: Amy's Concerns about Artus's Birthday Party: Not Dog Related

Hello all,

For some of you who might be legitimately confused about the date considering Amy's whining about not being able to count. I was there on Artus' birthday. No one knew me, not Tina, not Lisa, not Karen - they did not know what side of the fence I might be on or if I might wish them ill, just that I was interested in a Shiloh puppy. They were very up front about Artus and that day being his birthday and the breedings they were planning for him. All were more than willing to answer my questions and I was (and am)
very appreciative of all their help. In fact that day was my birthday (although not the number of years) LOL. Artus is one great dog! What a sweetheart.

Lyn

--- trillhill@aol.com wrote:
> From: trillhill@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 08/09/1999 4:13:06 PM
> Eastern Daylight Time, AGinley@aol.com writes:
>
> > <<Also re answering your question about  Artus's birthday, it was answered two
> > weeks ago. We all had a nice virtual > birthday party for him, including cake,
> > and he received numerous birthday cards. I'm  sorry you didn't attend. >>
> >
> > I guess ALL you INFORMED Shiloh people know > the date right?? Or just the
> > 20month something?? So why doens't anyone  else know, or is it such a big
> > secret...
> >
> > Is a date so hard to type??
> >
>
> Amy, you're the only one insisting that there > is such a big mystery about his >birthdate.  Someone else on this list (besides Tina, Lisa and me) was at Tina's house >and met Artus on  his birthday. No secret was made of it at that  time or any other >time.
>
> I gave you a clue to your mystery. If you  didn't understand the clue or my later post
> where I gave the birthdays of my entire family  and most of our animal population, I will >be  happy to explain it to you very slowly and step  by step.
>
> If on July 19th (Monday), 1999 you receive an  invitation to someone's 20 month >birthday party, being held on July 21 (Wednesday), that  must mean that the person was born on November  21st.
>
> Now for the math:
>
> 12 months=1 year.
> 7/21/1999 minus 1 year=7/21/98.
> 7/21/98 minus 8 months=11/21/97.
>
> I hope that helps.


> Karen and the yet another day older but now
> much wiser Artus

From:  "Michelle Pelescak" <mpshiloh@xxxxxxx.xxxx
Date:  Sat Sep 11, 1999  11:19 pm
Subject:  Re: several messages

>From: CORFIL@aol.com
>Reply-To: ShilohShepherds@onelist.com
>To: ShilohShepherds@onelist.com
>Subject: Re: [ShilohShepherds] several messages
>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:57:05 EDT
>
>From: CORFIL@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 09/11/1999 10:09:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>MPSHILOH@hotmail.com writes:


Hi Corinne,
thanks for the info. I can see your point about the direct quotes. still I do not think the general contect should be confidential.
As far as dual registration, ISSDC will accept dogs that are registered by SSDC but not vice versa. I have received a letter from Mr. Pellican several weeks ago basically saying that I have to send back notarized (I think) reply that I not not registered with ISSDC. That is exclusion policy by SSDC.
I cannot comment on the experience of the board since it is newly elected and since I am very inexperienced myself.
As far as future plans, responsible breeding with emphasis on total dogs and preservation of the breed. What reference material can be provided to explain, substantiate the it? I can try to find out.
What does the SSDC have? I would be sincerely interested.
I will look up the board.
Since you seem rather knowledgeable, who is Artus? From what I understand he
is GSD. What is the purpose of including him in the SHILOH SHEPHERD gene
pool. I though that the registry was closed.

From:  MaShiloh@aol.com
Date:  Tue Sep 14, 1999  3:11 am
Subject:  Re: RE: mpshilohs answer- more questions

In a message dated 09/13/1999 10:00:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mpshiloh@hotmail.com writes:

<< Tina,
if you have such a large base, why Artus? In the name of what is best for your breed why not join forces instead throwing around blame. >>

Because even with the large base we have, it is still limited! I have repeated myself over & over about this!! If you research my program you will find that I ALWAYS added fresh blood at strategic times! Since I know this breed better then anyone, and I know WHAT I am trying to produce .... then you will just have to trust my choice ..... or continue to inbreed & deal with the consequences!

Join forces with what? People that want to tell me how to "work" MY recipe? Why didn't the Beatles join forces with Kenny Rodgers? Some things just don't mix!

BTW .. we have already talked about the "jubilee" theory ... maybe someone can repost the reply Mynde gave? It may help you understand that this is nothing more then a CAMPFIRE story!! No breeder ever TRIED it!! Nobody was that foolish!!

analogy (at 3 am ugh!) If you eat one burger per hour for 48 hrs. you will not need to eat again for 16 days, since you have already consumed 3 daily meals times 16! therefore your surplus will carry you through those extra days ..... RIGHT?? That silly Jubilee "THEORY" works the same way!!!

WOULD SOMEBODY PLEASE REPOST THAT THREAD?